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okay I
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri
well we brexit did and the sky didn't
fall in the pound is stable indeed
climbing and the footy 100 is going
through the roof no one is asking for
anyone already here to depart calls for
a second referendum are dissipating
demands legally impossible in any case
for Parliament overrule the people have
been rejected by the government and
opposition alike sensible people however
they voted are therefore turning their
attention to the opportunities which
will now open up for Britain in The
Wider world including China One such is
the teaching fellow of International
Development at King's College London
Mark Stanford and I'm glad to say he
joins us now let's deal with China which
I know is your special area Mark first
of all um the possibility now exists
doesn't it for Britain to conclude uh
trading arrangements with all the other
countries in the world most of them uh
who are not in the European Union indeed
trade happens whether there are trade
deals or not we've been trading with
America for a long time without any
trade deal at all but is China a
particular Focus you think for British
manufacturing and exports well I think
China has to be a focus uh because um
well really for two reasons one uh
they're of course continuing to grow
faster than uh most of our other uh
trade partners and even though they're
experiencing a Slowdown that's likely to
continue it's a Slowdown that we would
be love to have ourselves absolutely yes
um but uh the second reason reason
really is that they are currently
transitioning from an economy which is
relatively uh undeveloped to a richer
economy which has higher demand
particularly for services and that's
what we have been exporting to them uh
that's what we're particularly good at
uh still
and um so there's enormous potential to
expand our exporter services to China um
as they grow what kind of services
English language uh high tech uh
financial services and so on is that
what you have in mind well the two areas
that we are really good at at the moment
um in particular are uh financial
services for one thing um of course
Britain um apart from just being a uh an
international Clearing House for uh many
transactions around the world Britain is
also a center of Financial Innovation uh
which is something that China lacks um
so we have that to offer but I think uh
there's maybe even more potential um in
the area of research because um Britain
is in fact uh the single most efficient
producer of research in the world uh
pound-for-pound um both scientific and
non-scientific research um China is uh
is a country which is um getting a bit
anxious about its research capacity um
there's a worry that uh if they don't
start um uh inventing their own
technology their own approaches to
things then they'll stagnate um they'll
be stuck in What's called the middle-
income trap well the the fintech uh
industry here in uh London which I was
only quite recently introduced to is
extraordinarily impressive H how have we
come to be so good at that you would
have thought that Silicon Valley the
United States and so on you would have
thought that they would have uh have
cleaned up well I suppose it's a it's a
combination of two factors really uh one
is the um increasing uh some would say
over specialization in financial
services I would I I would as well uh
over specialization in financial
services since uh the 1980s um so
obviously that's brought a great deal of
uh of talent here uh to work for that
industry but I think also that industry
has benefited from Britain's uh really
quite extraordinary academic uh
institutions and and research
institutions generally so the two feed
into each other in one way uh I'm quite
uh glad to hear you say that especially
if there's a big market for it in places
like China um the bricks
generally uh of course some of them are
up some of them are down but the long
term you would have imagined that the
bricks economies would be where the sun
was Rising we must have uh a potentially
good future with them yes and no so um
of course uh uh arguably
whether or not we talk about the bricks
as a whole of course the center of
gravity of the world is Shifting toward
Asia um uh it's inevitable now really
that that this will happen um there is a
big question mark uh however about not
just Britain's role in that new world
but the whole of of Europe actually um
what do we really have to sell uh in
this new world um that's going to set us
apart and um the optimistic prediction
is that we'll continue being good at at
what we do maybe we'll do diversify our
economy and uh and learn you know new
things to offer the the gloomy view is
that um China India uh other powers can
learn to do good science they can learn
to do all of these things and um and
they won't need us anymore and there is
there is a uh a narrative among some um
Chinese nationalists that says uh with
um some degree of smugness that um
Europe is now sinking into um
irrelevance and will become the world's
number one destination for um museums
and Castle tourism and nothing else I
think that there's uh something in that
but now that we're leaving the European
Union we don't have to go down with them
I mean you talk about the bricks what
about the Commonwealth to which Britain
has actually already a historical
special relation in that case do you
what what Prospect if not political
Financial Prospect do you see with them
yeah well I think that's uh that's one
of the potentially very exciting things
about uh about uh the possibility of
uh negotiating our own trade agreements
because of course uh there's a lot more
growth going on in um particularly
developing commonwealth countries um
when we look at the at the the century
ahead we're talking about um clear
growth both in in across Asia and indeed
in in Africa there's enormous potential
because of obviously uh the resources
that are present so um it would be an
enormous mistake to miss out on those
relationships yeah now despite all that
you're not really wholeheartedly a
brexiteer um you
favor uh a new Norway style uh
relationship tell us how that would look
well the um the Norway model um as
people have called it uh really just
means that we uh we honor the result of
the referendum completely we leave the
European Union but we remain in the
single Market what that means is that we
uh regain the vast bulk of the
sovereignty that was pulled we do away
with the vast majority of European
regulations
uh and we withdraw from uh a whole array
of Institutions and policies which were
designed for a project of political
integration but at the same time we
retain the benefits of the single Market
um so in a way I'd say it's the best of
both well there are two crucial caveats
to the on there one we would have to
keep paying in uh as Norway does and
other countries which alar does uh and
perhaps most controversial of all we'd
have to continue to allert free movement
of Labor and it's probably free movement
of Labor that tipped the balance for the
exit vote well I think um on the issue
of um payments first of all I think this
issue of of all the the very legitimate
concerns people had during the debate I
think this was a bit of a red herring to
be honest because the the amount it was
ey catching you have to it was ey
catching it was ey catching 10 billion
pounds net sounds like a very big figure
uh of course the British government
spends something like 770 billion a year
so this is really you know around 1% a
bit more of government spending uh the
amount um of GDP gain that comes from
being in the single Market is much more
than 10 billion pounds a year so we're
paying a small fee and we're getting a
big return for that fee um it's it's
really a bit of a non-issue I think um
you're right the free movement of Labor
is the big enchilada yeah so on free
movement of Labor um there are
possibilities uh and I think these are
going to have to be explored as much as
possible in the next couple of years
years of trying to negotiate uh a
different kind of settlements now there
are two ways that this could happen um
One Way um is uh what you might call the
lonstein solution so lonstein is also my
goodness this will be the schwick
Holstein question
next so so lonstein is also anyone know
the answer to the hin question beond my
area of expertise um Lenin is also in
this grouping along with Norway and
Iceland that we would be joining um
outside of the EU in the single market
and they have negotiated a special deal
where they're allowed to um even within
the single Market rules put a quot on
the number of workers they receive every
year um and it's quite a small quota it
was originally intended to be temporary
but they've renewed it over and over
again and it's effectively permanent um
this was Justified on the basis of the
special conditions of lonstein and their
desire to preserve their cultural
integrity and so on um now it's a big
culture L and you've got to you've got
to admit um so uh Iceland also falls in
there no but but don't all these
countries have one thing in common
they're extremely small to allow Britain
an exemption a country of 65 million
which had just
exited uh would be pregnant with
enormous political implications in the
rest of the EU yes there's going to be
enormous opposition to uh to any kind of
deal like this so um I don't think we
should count on it but it's something
that should be attempted should be
explored um the other possibility which
uh some people have suggested and I
think is perhaps a bit more realistic is
to try to negotiate a reframing of the
idea of free movement at on a wider
scale it doesn't necessarily have to be
uh for the whole of the EU it could just
be for the countries in this smaller
grouping for example um the EA agreement
which um governs these countries by the
way doesn't provide for free movement of
uh unemployed people students it
actually only allows free movement for
workers who already have a job offer now
that's been um Extended since uh through
the free movement directive but um I
think there's a a real U possibility for
a negotiation arguing toward the
original principle at least for these
this group of of countries it is quite
surprising to me that the EU holds quite
so tightly to this free movement shth it
wasn't of course in the original uh
model of uh a common market or even when
it became the The Wider
eec uh and in any case that wasn't a
difficulty because in the early days uh
the community was composed of countries
of roughly similar economies it was the
expansion of the EU and the political
integration that begat the free movement
uh uh shth uh I'm still a bit surprised
that they hold so firmly to it
well um I think uh you know of course
there are many different currents of
thought within uh European politics you
know uh European political institutions
and uh you do have dieh hard Federalists
who uh believe in the idea of creating a
European citizenship uh such that
eventually um in theory uh the flows of
of people um should equalize all these
countries um and there are of course
neoliberals as well who uh who just
believe in in opening uh yes markets yes
um the only people who believe actually
in in free movement of Labor are
liberals trotskyites and a
Rand unfortunately Mark we got to finish
there Mark Stanford you've helped us a
lot thank you very much for coming on
the Sputnik coming up next is the former
mayor of London and a leading labor
figure for almost 40 years it's Ken
Livingston don't miss it
welcome back to Sputnik Jeremy Corbin
has been through hell in the last week
they tried to quote break him as a man
unquote I know what that feels like and
so does our next guest he is a man who
needs no introduction because he is Ken
Livingston Ken Let's uh start uh with
what Jeremy has been through we both
know that no one could be kinder gentler
more inclusive a person
uh than Jeremy Corbin uh from a personal
perspective it's been breaking my heart
all week how did you feel oh it's just
appalling because Jeremy became leader
he reached out to all his critics the
people that didn't vote for him brought
them into a very broad based um Shadow
cabinet he allowed them a free vote on
Syria I he's not been you know imposing
a bit of he kept he kept Hillary Ben as
the shadow against that and now they've
been stirring up so we had all the
allegations of anti-Semitism which they
thought would damage the local election
results and that would trigger a
leadership challenge but it didn't I we
did quite well and then that's this
nonsense of blaming Germany because we'
voted to leave the European Union I mean
and it's a smear campaign and it's been
depressing to watch so many of these MPS
actually go off and in a half and start
demanding he goes but don't forget one
thing for the four elections under Blair
and brown local labor parties weren't
allowed to select the candidate they
wanted they had to choose an approve
list that been Ved to keep people like
you and me out you know so gradually the
number of genuine labor socialists in
the Parliamentary party has whittled
away as we've retired or died and it was
almost impossible for any new ones to
come in so German inherited a
parliamentary labor party so stew to the
right so far to the right to the one we
were in yeah I mean so different when we
entered there was at least a hundred
people workingclass trade unionist
socialist MPS at least 100 I mean
literally the combination of the Tribune
group and the campaign group the two
main eering groups was about half the
Parliamentary party but now I mean no
one I mean gets in un I mean they all
come through you know college get their
degree they're an advisor to an MP
they've not worked in the Trade union
movement they've not served in local
government
I it's just so unre they're out of touch
so many of them I mean I think don't
really have a good contact with
workingclass people anymore they think
swar figa is a is a Greek island uh all
the it was quite a pantomim all the
dames were brought out on the last day
Dame Margaret Hodge Dame Margaret Becket
Dame har Harmon and then even Dame David
Cameron joined the interesting when
Cameron calls on Corbin to go I think
that's every reason why we should get
him to state because all those is
nonsense he lost the referendum we've
had four byelections and in each of
those byelections under Jeremy the swing
to labor has been big enough to put a
labor government in office when people
face that choice whether it's this
Autumn or in four years time between
four more years of this story government
and its awful policies or Jeremy is
talking about a very different Affair of
Britain I I think jery wins well exactly
all those are all indicators that he is
electable and that's why he gets the
score storm against him I mean the
trouble is that I think there a lot of
these inited old blairite MPS can't come
to terms of the fact the last Labor
government was a a terrible
disappointment not just on invading Iraq
and Afghanistan but failing to create
good jobs for workingclass people it was
all about what the bankers wanted all
the wealth went up to that small Elite
at the top and Ordinary People are much
worse off than they now were 35 years
ago they really struggle and that's how
it's the same in America it's why
there's the anger the supporting people
supporting Bernie Sanders and Donald
Trump they just see the politics in the
west has been a small Elite you change
the government but broadly the same sort
of people carry on the same sort of
policies absolutely now turning to the
uh report on
anti-Semitism uh in which you are quite
unfairly uh dragged in it has now
reported you've been Vindicated
and your suspension must now be lifted
surely well I I just I just finished
reading the report it's fairly long and
shy chakar is woman of real integrity
and intelligence she demonstrates
there's no problem of anti-Semitism in
the labor party but the really important
thing she's making real rule changes
being proposed and Jeremy says he's
going to carry them out never again must
we allow unelected party bureaucrats to
suspend party members without even
checking whether what's happened is true
I mean I I I was up before the House of
Commons home Affairs committee and just
before me was the chairman of the board
of deputies of British Jews and he's
opening he says for Ken Livingston to
say that Hitler was a Zionist was so
offensive he should apologize well if
IID said that I wouldn't just apologize
I'd go to my doctor to check I wasn't in
the beginning of dementia you know how
can anyone think Hitler was a Zionist he
hated Jews I mean it's just ping and I
hope these rules will come through
because it isn't just me there was a
woman who was suspended because she drew
a parallel between the Holocaust and the
solu trade well the number and that
woman was herself Jewish yes I and we've
just had you know a situation where
because I can't stand for the NC because
I the closing date for nominations has
passed the left caucus came together we
proposed a a young woman who's actually
been a Zionist in Zionist organizations
and in her local party I the the local
MP argued she shouldn't be nominated X
MP yeah exm now that's not because he's
anti-semitic it's because she's W Jeremy
and that's all this round's been about
yes those MPS who are smearing me as
anti-semitic what they really hate is I
defend Jeremy yes quite so uh
anti-Semitism exists it's overwhelmingly
a phenomenon of the right there are and
I've met them some sections of the
Muslim Community who idiotically fail to
make the distinction between Judaism and
Zionism the religion actually demands
that they respect Judaism yet they
sometimes conflict the two a very small
number I like you I was in the labor
party for almost 40 years and would have
been in it now if I hadn't been expelled
over 50 years uh I have never met an
anti-site in labor politics it's it's
actually an oxymoron I mean why would
anyone who's anti Smitty join a party
that's committed to challenging every
form of racism and sexism now I've never
heard an anti-semitic comment in 47
years um I last heard a racist comment
in
1970 I and I have to say sadly I do
occasionally hear sexist comments I we
still got a long way to go on tackling
that but no who if someone was
anti-semitic they wouldn't have joined a
labor party led by Ed Milan for 5 years
who was himself Jewish yes no you're
your old adversary uh Boris Johnson uh
has uh in the last hours uh announced
that after all he will not be our next
uh prime minister uh he's history now I
think and probably will retire to uh to
write it are you shocked at what's
happening in the Tory party uh well I
mean I'm glad to see Boris Co because he
would have been a disastrous prime
minister he doesn't do the job I mean
when he was May he appointed a deputy
who was a former Tory Council leader and
he got on running the machine whil Boris
was off promoting himself I think Boris
realized that he wasn't going to get
enough Tor imp PS nominating him to get
into that final two that the party met
because most tmps have watched his eight
years as mayor and realized he's not
really Tory or anything he's just about
promoting himself he should have gone
into Show Business he's a showman yeah
but the trouble is a choice between
Theresa May and mich go is just a
nightmare except for Jeremy I mean from
Jeremy's point of view I'd rather face
one of those Tweed Tweed them I think
that Theresa May is obviously worthy
competent person but dull a bit like
John Major in a dress uh if and we know
how his career go now that's scary he
has an ideology which would turn us into
a sort of mini America it would be
horrendous he would roll back I mean you
undergo premise ship I think you could
say goodbye to the NHS we'd be moving to
something like America you see him more
as the as the neocon absolutely and the
trouble is he does focus on detail he
would really make change and he turned
Britain into a much less Pleasant um
Society so let's hope we have an early
election yeah uh ironically I must tell
you when I was attacked and hospitalized
uh by a supporter of Israel who went to
prison for 16 months for it the only
Topline politician who crossed the road
got out stopped his car got out and
crossed the road to commiserate with me
was Michael go so on a personal uh on a
personal level I once had a drink with
Nigel farage does that doesn't mean to
say I'm ain't going to support him
either well I can say I've never had a
drink and never will have a drink with
with Nigel farage last question then uh
are we in for an early election isn't it
unarguable certainly Cameron made the
argument when Gordon Brown took over
that you can't just sit there as the
Prime Minister without the the public uh
endorsement House of there yeah yeah
it's it's exactly how Art became uh
became president uh without a vote being
cast democracy is so overrated uh don't
you think the the demand for an early
election will become uh unanswerable I
think it will because you're going to
have years of negotiations about this I
whether we I mean how we negotiate
leaving
um and I think to do that the person's
got to have the legitim of having the
backing of the British people um and you
you can't just rumble on for another
four years before the people get a
chance to say whether we do we want Gove
or or or do we want Jeremy Corbin you
know that's what democracy should be
about I mean the big mistake Gordon
Brown made was not going for that
election immediately after he became
Prime would y he would have won and I
think the longer they put it off the
better labors and chance of a good
majority will be so but I'd still want
to see it quickly I mean this we are in
such a mess yeah well you left
Parliament far too early as I told you
at the time any chance of a comeback oh
I'm 71 now I mean but you look 50 one ah
you're so kind I but no I mean I'll do
whatever Jeremy wants me to do but I
have to say I'm a house husband I mean
my wife's the teacher and I I have to
get the kids off to school the dog do
the shopping well that's admirable but
but your country needs you and your
party needs you Ken Livingston thanks
for coming on the
Sputnik and now it's your turn to tell
us what you think through the portals of
social media what's ratling Guri so as
we've just spoken to the China expert
Mark Stanford uh we asked the question
will the People's Republic become the
UK's key Ally now in this post brexit
era Glenn says well a lot more people
live there and business is business well
that's right of course uh there are more
people live there than in any other
country we do seem to have quite a good
relationship with China it's part of
what I think will be our future of uh
looking around the world for new markets
and new customers and building new
relationships without trying to
interfere in their Internal Affairs and
placing sanctions on them and so on so
business is business business is
business well that's all that we've got
for today
which alas means that's the end of the
show you can stay in touch with us
through Twitter rtor Sputnik or Facebook
Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye
from me gatri and from me George
Galloway it's been marvelous
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